Talk:Timurid Empire

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Timurid Empire article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1, 2: 12 months

Warning: active arbitration remedies

The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:

You must be logged-in to an autoconfirmed or confirmed account (usually granted automatically to accounts with 10 edits and an age of 4 days)

Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

Central Asia Mid‑importance

	Asia portal Timurid Empire is part of WikiProject Central Asia, a project to improve all Central Asia-related articles. This includes but is not limited to Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Mongolia, Tajikistan, Tibet, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Xinjiang and Central Asian portions of Iran, Pakistan and Russia, region-specific topics, and anything else related to Central Asia. If you would like to help improve this and other Central Asia-related articles, please join the project. All interested editors are welcome.Central AsiaWikipedia:WikiProject Central AsiaTemplate:WikiProject Central AsiaCentral Asia
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Iran Mid‑importance

	Iran portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Iran, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles related to Iran on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please join the project where you can contribute to the discussions and help with our open tasks.IranWikipedia:WikiProject IranTemplate:WikiProject IranIran
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Afghanistan Mid‑importance

	Afghanistan portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Afghanistan, a project to maintain and expand Afghanistan-related subjects on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.AfghanistanWikipedia:WikiProject AfghanistanTemplate:WikiProject AfghanistanAfghanistan
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Former countries (inactive)

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Former countries, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.Former countriesWikipedia:WikiProject Former countriesTemplate:WikiProject Former countriesFormer countries

Middle Ages Low‑importance

	Middle Ages portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Middle Ages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Middle Ages on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Middle AgesWikipedia:WikiProject Middle AgesTemplate:WikiProject Middle AgesMiddle Ages
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

History Low‑importance

	History portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the subject of History on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Historyhistory
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

New so called flag in this article

There has been a flag newly added before a couple of months which is relied on the Timurid coins as it's source. I didn't delete this change in order not to start a start an author's conflict. Nevertheless, it can not be argued being accurate to be considered as the state flag but something to support the three circle symbol in the flag of the Timurid Empire since it has already known as a red flag with those three circle from the Catalan atlas and other contemporary and modern sources. I can give the "Catalan Atlas" as a contemporary source and a long and satisfying discussion about Timurid flag in "History, Polotics and Legacy, Amir Timur" by A. Ahad Andican. Further sources could be given easily. I want to appeal the change i mentioned above and bringing back the old Red and Black flag with three circle. Afshar-beg (talk) 12:31, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There is no Timurid flag in the Catalan Atlas (1375), simply because the Timurid Empire does not appear in that map, probably because its creation was too recent (1370). Please check the Catalan Atlas article if in doubt. The only known symbol of the Timurids is the "Three annulets" symbol, per sources given in the article. पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 13:03, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It was not too recent because it had been at least 5 years. If you look carefully, you can see it is easily distinguishable from the other Eastern Chagatai flags with white colors in the Atlas. Also, the Transoxianian state, which Timur took over in 1370, was separated from the Eastern Chagatai Khanate in 1362. Therefore, it was not too recent and can be expected to use another flag to differentiate themselves from the Eastern Khanate, which we can also see in the Catalan Atlas. I believe that the three annulets issue was put forward just to be seen as an innovator, contributor, or trailblazer, and this mistake must be rectified immediately. Afshar-beg (talk) 21:23, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There is no such flag in the Catalan Atlas (and no mention of Timur or the Timurid Empire either). See for yourself [1], and look at the sources. पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 04:15, 12 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There is one flag similar to the commonly known timurid flag in the second page from righ. Afshar-beg (talk) 14:11, 12 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose you mean this flag

, but this is the flag for China (Yuan dynasty), not the flag of the Timurids, which don't appear in the map. पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 14:24, 12 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You were right. The flag in the Catalan Atlas was mistakenly considered the Timurid Empire's flag. However, I found a new and reliable source confirming that the Timurid Empire had a red flag. If it will change something, if there's a chance to bring the old Timurid flag back in this article, I am going to share the source wherever I should. Afshar-beg (talk) 19:10, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Afshar-beg:Please share your source here... पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 19:17, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We already know from many sources that the Timurid flag has the three annulets symbol on it, as Yuka Kadoi also stated. However, we have further information about the accuracy of widely accepted former flag that Zeki Velidi Togan, who has an indisputable reputation in the science of history and known with his works in Russia, Turkey and worldwide, confirms in his book "Turkestan, nowadays Türk-ili (original name: Türkistan, Bugünkü Türk-ili)". I have the book's second edition (1981) physically as paperback. The first edition, if I am not mistaken, was in 1945-1947. This book was also used by many notable historians such as Martin B. Dickinson and many which became sources of many Wikipedia and Encyclopedia of Islam articles. Afshar-beg (talk) 20:20, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Native name in Perso-Arabic Script

Hello @Nashville whiz, you recently reverted my edit in the infobox native name, so I opened this discussion to discussing about that. In my edit[2], I did change the name in Perso-Arabic script in infobox native name parameter. Is there any other place needing the change I missed? PadFoot2008 (talk) 12:30, 19 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @PadFoot2008, I owe you an apology since it seems that I somehow missed that part. I'm restoring your edit. Take care, Nashville whiz (talk) 06:14, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's alright. Mistakes happen. Thanks! PadFoot2008 (talk) 06:23, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A more accurate map of the Timurid State

I recently added a detailed map showing the greatest extent of the Timurid State [3] and also stated that I can provide sources about any issue concering the map. However, my edit was reversed by पाटलिपुत्र without specifying any reason. I would like to either reapply my edit or be given a valid explanation. Afshar-beg (talk) 11:23, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi User:Afshar-beg. Your map seems quite inflated compared to standard published maps (such as this one). You would have to make a case that your version is the standard one... Best पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 11:57, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sources per that map

Seeing someone else bring up that map again, I checked the video the map is from to see if the creator of the map did have any sources on it, and in the comment section he had an insane amount of them per that map.

I'll just copy paste it below for you to see. @HistoryofIran from here on the pinned comment: [4]

- The Empire of the Steppes - René Grousset - Tarikh-i-Rashidi of Mirza Muhammad Haidar Dughlat - An Historical Atlas of Central Asia - Yuri Bregel - A History of Inner Asia - Svat Soucek - Mongols, Turks, and Others: Eurasian Nomads and the Sedentary World -BABUR NAMA (MEMOIRS OF BABUR - Translated from the original Turki Text of Zahiru'd-din Muhammad Babur Padshah Ghazi by ANNETTE SUSANNAH BEVERIDGE - History of Civilizations of Central Asia - Volume IV - Theage of achievement:A.D. 750 to the end of the fifteenth century - History of Civilizations of Central Asia- Volume V - Development in contrast: from the sixteenth tothe mid-nineteenth century - Manz, Beatrice Forbes, The Rise and Rule of Tamerlane. Cambridge University Press, 1989, ISBN 0-521-34595-2. - The Cambridge History of Iran - Volume 6 - The Timurid and Safavid Periods - Edited by Peter Jackson - Emir Timur Tarih, Siyaset, Miras- Prof. Dr. A. Ahat Andican - Encyclopedia of Mongolian and the Mongol Empire - Christopher P. Atwood - Timurids in Transition Turko-Persian Politics and Acculturation in Medieval Iran by Maria E. Subtelny - Yazdi Sharaf al-Din Ali, Zafarnama , Trad. in French by Petis de la Croix under the title “ Histoire de Timur Bec ”, II, 29 - MEDIEVAL PERSIA 1040–1797 - Second edition - David Morgan - THE MONGOLS AND THE DELHI SULTANATE IN THE REIGN OF MUḤAMMAD TUGHLUQ (1325—1351) - P. JACKSON - Central Asiatic Journal , 1975, Vol. 19, No. 1/2 (1975), pp. 118-157 - The Golden Horde and Its Fall Grekov B.D., Yakubovsky A. Yu. - TÜRK ANSİKLOPEDİSİ – cilt VIII - Timur ve Seferleri / Yrd. Doç. Dr. Gürsoy Solmaz - Onaltıncı yüzyılda Türk dünyası 1. (Özbek ve Kazak hanlıkları) MEHMET ALPARGU - Babur: Timurid Prince and Mughal Emperor, 1483-1530 by Stephen Frederic Dale - The Cambridge History Of India Volume III by Wolseley Haig - Power, Politics and Religion in Timurid Iran - Beatrice Forbes Manz - Timurlular Devleti Tarihi - Prof. Dr. İsmail Aka - Mirza Şahruh ve Zamanı (1405-1447) - Prof. Dr. İsmail Aka - TÜRK TARİH KURUMU- - Timurlular, Bozkırdan Cennet Bahçesine 1360-1506 - Hayrunnisa Alan - TDV Islam Ansiklopedisi - Encyclopedia of Islam The Jalayirids - Dynastic State Formation in the Mongol Middle East - Patrick Wing - Şeybani Özbek Hanlığı: Siyasi, İdari, Askeri ve İktisadi Yapı - Abdulkadir Macit - The 'Ancient Supremacy': Bukhara, Afghanistan and the Battle for Balkh, 1731-1901 (Jonathan Lee) - Bosworth, C. Edmund (2009). "ḴOTTAL". Encyclopædia Iranica, Online edition. Retrieved 6 May 2014. - State and Tribe in Nineteenth-Century Afghanistan: The Reign of Amir Dost Muhammad Khan (1826-1863) -Christine Noelle - Gibb, H.A.R. trans. and ed. (1971). The Travels of Ibn Baṭṭūṭa, A.D. 1325–1354 (Volume 3). London: Hakluyt Society. p. 571. - Приключения Шелкового пути (Silk Road Adventures) - faculty.washington edu - Silk Road Cities - ELENA PASKALEVA GABRIELLE VAN DEN BERG - Rickard, J (20 September 2010), Siege of Isfizar, 1383 - About Nickname of Kara Yülük Othman Beg - Fatma Akkuş Yiğit - Dil Araştırmaları Sayı: 16 Bahar 2015, 191-198 ss. - ENCYCLOPÆDIA IRANICA ATĀBAKĀN-E LORESTĀN - Prof.Dr.Yaşar YÜCEL, Anadolu Beylikleri Hakkında Araştırmalar II, TTK Basımevi, Ankara 1991 - History of Georgia, Vol. II, Tb. 2008 P. 89-90 - AZƏRBAYCAN MİLLİ ELMLƏR AKADEMİYASI - A. BAKIXANOV ADINA - TARİX İNSTİTUTU - AZƏRBAYCAN TARİXİ - XIII-XVIII əsrlər - YEDDİ CİLDDƏ - III CİLD - Mâzenderân’da Yerli Bir Aile: Celâvîler - MUSTAFA ŞAHİN- Iğdır University Journal of Social Sciences - Mamluk Cairo, a Crossroads for Embassies - Studies on Diplomacy and Diplomatics - Edited by Frédéric Bauden & Malika Dekkiche - Practising Diplomacy in the Mamluk Sultanate - Gifts and Material Culture in the Medieval Islamic World - Doris Behrens-Abouseif - Sharafnama by Sharafkhan Bidlisi – vol 1/ Şerefname - Cilt 1 - Kürt Tarihi - AKKOYUNLULAR VE ERZİNCAN (Uzun Hasan Devrine Kadar) Yrd. Doç. Dr. Ahmet TOKSOY - BBC News Uzbekistan profile – Timeline - Royal and historical letters during the reign of Henry the Fourth, king of England and of France, and Lord of Ireland by Hingeston, F. C. (Francis Charles), 1833-1910; Great Britain. Public Record Office - Vodyanskoye settlement // Encyclopedia of the Volgograd region - Encyclopaedia Iranica - balkh town and province - Ferghana Valley The Heart of Central Asia - S. Frederick Starr with Baktybek Beshimov, Inomjon I. Bobokulov, and Pulat Shozimov - Çağatay Hanlığı (1227 - 1345) - Prof. Dr. Mustafa Kafalı - The Pearson Indian History Manual for the UPSC Civil Services Preliminary Examination By Singh - İlhanlı Tarihi – Abdulkadir Yuvalı - نقش هرموز در تجارت عصر تيموري (The role of Hormuz in Timurid trade) - rasekhoon net - بازخوانی تاریخ/ملوک هرمز و یورش تیمور (Re-reading the history / king of Hormuz and the invasion of Timur) - tabnakhormozgan ir - تعیین حدود مغستان، خاستگاه ملوک هرموز (Determining the boundaries of Maghistan, the origin of the kings of Hormuz) - jhr ui ac ir -تعیین حدود مغستان، خاستگاه ملوک هرموز (Determining the boundaries of Maghista, the origin of the kings of Hormuz) - journals ui ac ir - La campagne de Timur en Anatolie (1402) by Marie-Mathilde Alexandrescu-Dersca - Essai sur la civilisation timouride - Lucien Bouvat - Anadolu Beylikleri ve Akkoyunlu, Karakoyunlu Devletleri - İsmail Hakkı Uzunçarşılı - Rickard, J (28 April 2010), Battle of Kul-i-Malik, May 1512 Noorullah (talk) 00:34, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With that being said, should the new map be added per these rather insane amount of sources? Noorullah (talk) 00:35, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but this looks dodgy. They needed 50 sources (no pages (WP:CITE, WP:VER), some don't even seem WP:RS (used BBC news for example)) to create that map? --HistoryofIran (talk) 00:42, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I see what you mean. Perhaps the map creator @Afshar-beg can provide some insight, he did seem willing to do so a month ago in a talk page post above this. Noorullah (talk) 00:46, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

New Map

About two weeks prior I added a new map to replace the old one. It uses a reliable source, yet editors continue to take it down and replace it with unsourced maps. Before this devolves into edit warring I'd like some discussion on the talk page here. HetmanTheResearcher (talk) 23:47, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@HetmanTheResearcher Not a bad map but some feedback. Khizr Khan remained governor of Delhi under Timur's suzerainty, meaning what remained of the Delhi Sultanate was under him. Noorullah (talk) 02:21, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not talking about the Delhi Sultanate as it currently appears on your map, seems a bit inflated actually, but I don't fully know enough about that. I believe it was just from the Punjab-Delhi that Khizr Khan ruled. Noorullah (talk) 02:22, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the feedback, if you have a source that complies with WP:RS I can add this in. HetmanTheResearcher (talk) 06:58, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Having given about ten days for the initial editors to discuss in the talk page I'll end the discussion here. Further arguments have shown the initial map, while inaccurate, is better than my proposed map, so I will withdraw my map proposal. Still, I believe some improvement to the map is needed needed, such as bringing it more in line with Wikipedia:WikiProject Maps/Conventions using an orthographic map. HetmanTheResearcher (talk) 23:40, 5 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@HetmanTheResearcher:I don't think your new "red" map [5] is an improvement, as the borders of the Timurids seem identical, but terrain is lacking. It is aesthetically rather inferior too (not very refined, a bit "cartoonish", and departing from the map style of germane articles). I am also having a hard time believing your source for the purple banner: it is different from any banner I have seen so far in miniatures, or possible banners described in the literature. What does your source use as reference (primary source) for this purple banner? Could you send me a scan of the page from "Les drapeaux de l’islam : de Mahomet à nos jours" (p.252-253) to verify? Thanks पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 05:59, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The problem with the other ones is simply a lack of sources per WP:VER. The old map has problems, like showing Aleppo as under Timurid control when it was only raided and omitting Timurid raids. Replacing the unsourced ones with a new, sourced one was needed to improve the quality of the article. For aesthetics I held back on details to not overcomplicate. The lack of terrain is an issue, future maps could improve on that (assuming they comply with WP:RS).

For the banner I can not since my faculty forbids the redistribution of copyrighted material, apologies. WP:SOURCEACCESS may be able to help regarding access to the source. I can get back in two days regarding the text of the source when I have access to it again. HetmanTheResearcher (talk) 06:56, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@HetmanTheResearcher: For the source of the banner, just send me a scan through private e-mail (see "Email this user" in "Tools" on my user page): it will not breach anything. If I can certify the source is correct (and basing itself on proper data), I will be your best supporter. पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 07:48, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, I can send it when I have access to the source again HetmanTheResearcher (talk) 18:05, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @HetmanTheResearcher:. Thanks for sending the source for the banner by e-mail (Les drapeaux de l’islam : de Mahomet à nos jours. Buchet-Chastel. P.252-253). I can confirm the general shape of your banner is correctly following the source. I have a doubt about the color though (especially since your scan is black-and-white): the text says "la couleur était rouge" ("the color was red"), which is more consistent with miniatures showing similar banners

. Shouldn't the banner in your file be more vividly red, rather than the brownish color it is today? Best पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 06:54, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@पाटलिपुत्र You are right, I used a darker colour than than what the text shows. I'll upload a corrected version soon HetmanTheResearcher (talk) 16:45, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks HetmanTheResearcher! I added the banner to the infobox, with ref and quote. Thanks for finding this. पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 17:28, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No problem, glad I could contribute! HetmanTheResearcher (talk) 02:58, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]